Social Biden considers accepting Palestinian refugees

[Siver!]

But the Troubles isn't an argument though. This isn't the Troubles, this is an entire different conflict that has been going on for much longer and much more fiercely.

Israel's goal isn't to subdue Palestine through brute force, if that was their goal it would have been achieved decades ago. This isn't a counter-insurgency either. Israel isn't trying to win hearts and minds so they can rule there after. That ship sailed long ago when they willingly gave up the territory and much more in search of peace.

They're retaliating against a belligerent force that's unwilling to negotiate or admit defeat. They're going after the people responsible for planning and coordinating the Oct. 7th attack and rescuing hostages or recovering their remains.

This idea that they're trying to divide and conquer is so fucking silly. If they wanted to do either it could have easily been done at any point between now and the start of the conflict. Clearly they do not want to resort to the complete brute force occupation of Palestine.

You know the Troubles is a modern extension of sectarian violence that has been ongoing for hundreds of years, though, right?

Judaism vs Islam has lost far fewer lives than Catholicism vs Protestantism.

There isn't even a comparison to be made, it's degrees of magnitude greater.

The idea Israel-Palestine or any other equivalent war is 'much more fierce' is laughable.

 

[avenue94]

You know the Troubles is a modern extension of sectarian violence that has been ongoing for hundreds of years, though, right?

Judaism vs Islam has lost far fewer lives than Catholicism vs Protestantism.

There isn't even a comparison to be made, it's degrees of magnitude greater.

The idea Israel-Palestine or any other equivalent war is 'much more fierce' is laughable.

So I'm going to partially disagree here. One of the major misunderstandings here about both conflicts is the tendency to boil them down to religious conflicts. They are not, the religious stuff is dressing for effectively colonial conflicts and decolonization struggles.

TLDR: Yes there are religious aspects of both conflicts, but most of the origins come from colonial grievances and national liberation movements post 1900s-ish.

 

[kflo]

Who, in the eyes of Gazans, will be more popular than Hamas after the fighting is over? Popularity and power are relative, unless there is a Gazan group more popular or powerful than Hamas, we're back to square one as far as de facto rulers.

Israel continued tacit and financial support of Hamas through most of the 80s as well, even going as far as cabinet level informal meetings with Hamas leaders. The shift really only came in the late 80s.

And again, people vote on whoever is in front of them. The elections were neither free or fair (not entirely Israel's fault), but what do you expect after years of civil society erosion? Israel's goal from the 70s onward was primarily ensuring moderate Palestinian groups didn't gain traction, you don't think that has any bearing on today's lack of moderating civil groups?

Officially, sure. Unofficially (aka at a community level), yes they will still hold most of the power. I've already asked you keep not answering: who in the eyes of Gazans is more popular than Hamas at this point?

I said this is the track Israel is on. Not that I want this track or think it's going to turn out great. You're confusing my stances with my observations.

So from the late 80s (and they were already at war by the late 80s) they were mortal enemies until AFTER Hamas was already firmly in control of Gaza. Then they had to coexist in some way (but still enemies).

from the 80s through the 2000s, how did Israel ensure moderate groups didn’t gain traction? They were at war with Hamas continuously. Not supporting them. You should stop parroting the same bullshit too many of the haters are spouting. You don’t want to be one of them.

And it doesn’t matter who is more popular. Israel will ensure they don’t have any resources, any power, they will not negotiate with them. Gaza will need to find another group to interface politically with the rest of the world and to govern internally.

 

[Siver!]

So I'm going to partially disagree here. One of the major misunderstandings here about both conflicts is the tendency to boil them down to religious conflicts. They are not, the religious stuff is dressing for effectively colonial conflicts and decolonization struggles.

TLDR: Yes there are religious aspects of both conflicts, but most of the origins come from colonial grievances and national liberation movements post 1900s-ish.

Perfectly fair addendum.

No issues. Perfectly true.

 

[HereticBD]

Who, in the eyes of Gazans, will be more popular than Hamas after the fighting is over?

Will that matter, is the question you should be asking. They will not be governing themselves after this. I don't know how much more clear Israel can make that.

Terrorist supporters want terrorists in charge, therefore Israel will let it happen. Yes, Israel is doing all this just to give power back to the Gazan's, so they can elect terrorists again. Not just any terrorists, but the exact same terrorists that caused all this shit in the first place. Do you realize how dumb you sound right now?

The Gaza you knew before October 7th is no more.

 

[avenue94]

So from the late 80s (and they were already at war by the late 80s) they were mortal enemies until AFTER Hamas was already firmly in control of Gaza. Then they had to coexist in some way.

Yes, Israeli intelligence didn't realize what Hamas had evolved into or the language of the charter until later than ideal. Out of curiosity, have you ever watched a documentary called The Gatekeepers?

from the 80s through the 2000s, how did Israel ensure moderate groups didn’t gain traction? They were at war with Hamas continuously. Not supporting them. You should stop parroting the same bullshit too many of the haters are spouting. You don’t want to be one of them.

A very heavyhanded occupation with suspended civil liberties is catnip for extremist groups looking to recruit. You seem to be under the impression that Gazans had civil rights during this era. If we were talking about most other conflicts, I think people would be much quicker to realize how damaging long term it was for so many Gazans to grow up under martial law.

And it doesn’t matter who is more popular. Israel will ensure they don’t have any resources, any power, they will not negotiate with them. Gaza will need to find another group to interface politically with the rest of the world and to govern internally.

Again, who is this group? It doesn't matter if Israel says Hamas isn't in power or that they won't negoatie with them. They will have to until another group is able to command more popular support than Hamas. And what makes you think Israel will not negotiate with Hamas when the are literally doing that right now?

One of the common trends of successful occupations and reconstructions is, unfortunately, letting some really shitty people get a pass because they are needed to help govern. Japan and the emperor, Germany and Nazis, and as I mentioned, Iraq and US as a negative example of this trend.

 

[avenue94]

Will that matter, is the question you should be asking. They will not be governing themselves after this. I don't know how much more clear Israel can make that.

Terrorist supporters want terrorists in charge, therefore Israel will let it happen. Yes, Israel is doing all this just to give power back to the Gazan's, so they can elect terrorists again. Not just any terrorists, but the exact same terrorists that caused all this shit in the first place. Do you realize how dumb you sound right now?

The Gaza you knew before October 7th is no more.

It will clearly matter unless you know of some form of mind control that exists. You keep insisting Gaza will not govern itself, but you can't tell me who will govern them? Rather glaring hole in your argument.

Again, who will be more popular than Hamas in the eyes of Gazans? You seem to think Israel can just tap a figurehead or international coalition and suddenly this gives them power in Gaza. That's a mistake most failed occupations make, failing to gain adequate popular buy in.

 

[HereticBD]

It will clearly matter unless you know of some form of mind control that exists. You keep insisting Gaza will not govern itself, but you can't tell me who will govern them?

I've told you multiple times already. Israel(or one of their proxy's) will govern them. You cleary just don't like that reality. Gaza is not some big complex nation the size of fuckin' Texas or anything. It's a glorified city. They also have no official allies and aren't even recognized as a country. Oh', but Israel will have no choice but to let Gazan's dictate it's fate 'cause...reasons.

You're delusional.

 

[kflo]

Yes, Israeli intelligence didn't realize what Hamas had evolved into or the language of the charter until later than ideal. Out of curiosity, have you ever watched a documentary called The Gatekeepers?

A very heavyhanded occupation with suspended civil liberties is catnip for extremist groups looking to recruit. You seem to be under the impression that Gazans had civil rights during this era. If we were talking about most other conflicts, I think people would be much quicker to realize how damaging long term it was for so many Gazans to grow up under martial law.

Again, who is this group? It doesn't matter if Israel says Hamas isn't in power or that they won't negoatie with them. They will have to until another group is able to command more popular support than Hamas. And what makes you think Israel will not negotiate with Hamas when the are literally doing that right now?

One of the common trends of successful occupations and reconstructions is, unfortunately, letting some really shitty people get a pass because they are needed to help govern. Japan and the emperor, Germany and Nazis, and as I mentioned, Iraq and US as a negative example of this trend.

So are we agreeing now that Israel didn’t support Hamas in any way from the 80s through their election and takeover of Gaza? Because you’ve been implying Israel was propping up Hamas and aiding their rise all the way through. Reality is Hamas became something different than what Israel originally supported in the 70s and early 80s. And then they were enemies.

But a lot of anti-Israeli posters want to pretend Israel was in favor of Hamas throughout. And i can only speculate why this lie is repeated…….

And the Nazi’s unconditionally surrendered and were declared illegal and abolished.

 

[Siver!]

I've told you multiple times already. Israel(or one of their proxy's) will govern them. You cleary just don't like that reality. Gaza is not some big complex nation the size of fuckin' Texas or anything. It's a glorified city. They also have no official allies and aren't even recognized as a country. Oh', but Israel will have no choice but to let Gazan's dictate it's fate 'cause...reasons.

You're delusional.

That's a one state solution, dumb dumb.

The only way out of this is with a two state solution.

A one state solution will never work, it's failed time and time again.

What you're constantly bleating about is the only answer that won't work now that your previous answer of 'no Palestine' is obviously never coming to fruition.

 

[HereticBD]

That's a one state solution, dumb dumb.

Yep.

The only way out of this is with a two state solution.

Says who? You?

Funny how you claim that a one state solution won't work, but the two state solution that hasn't worked and never will work, will somehow work.

Keep telling yourself fairy tales, bruh. Israel is taking it. That's the goal. Something you whine about on the reg, but just don't like it when somebody who isn't hysterically crying about it, tells you "Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing."

 

[avenue94]

I've told you multiple times already. Israel(or one of their proxy's) will govern them. You cleary just don't like that reality. Gaza is not some big complex nation the size of fuckin' Texas or anything. It's a glorified city. They also have no official allies and aren't even recognized as a country. Oh', but Israel will have no choice but to let Gazan's dictate it's fate 'cause...reasons.

You're delusional.

Which Israeli proxy has enough popular support to run Gaza? You seem to really not understand how corrosive and damaging occupations are for the occupier.

So are we agreeing now that Israel didn’t support Hamas in any way from the 80s through their election and takeover of Gaza? Because you’ve been implying Israel was propping up Hamas and aiding their rise all the way through. Reality is Hamas became something different than what Israel originally supported in the 70s and early 80s. And then they were enemies.

They supported them through the late 80s. And then there was the period of Israeli support for Hamas in the 2010s, which I don't really touch on because that's an entirely different matter. At that point, the Israeli strategy as maintaining a status quo of the PA and Hamas counterbalancing each other...and that strategy clearly backfired.

But a lot of anti-Israeli posters want to pretend Israel was in favor of Hamas throughout. And i can only speculate why this lie is repeated…….

Certainly not my stance. Israeli works with all sorts of unsavory groups, including terrorist groups, and that isn't particularly unique to Israel. As I mentioned earlier, Israel effectively sleep walked into this conflict. They thought that Hamas and Palestine was under control until far too late. A clear intelligence and political failure from Israel.

And the Nazi’s unconditionally surrendered and were declared illegal and abolished.

Officially yes, but West Germany's government was full of Nazis that were allowed to carry on because the occupiers felt it was a bargain they needed to make.

I would really recommend the documentary I mentioned earlier to give context on my position about Israel sleepwalking into this. It's not a lefty documentary and is quite prophetic at this point.

 

[avenue94]

Yep.

Says who? You?

Funny how you claim that a one state solution won't work, but the two state solution that hasn't worked and never will work, will somehow work.

Keep telling yourself fairy tales, bruh. Israel is taking it. That's the goal. Something you whine about on the reg, but just don't like it when somebody who isn't hysterically crying about it, tells you "Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing."

A one state solution means either Israel is no longer a Jewish state or they are no longer a democracy. Perhaps both. The two-state solution has its flaws, but it's hard to think that a one-state solution is better.

 

[HereticBD]

Which Israeli proxy has enough popular support to run Gaza?

It literally doesn't matter. You seem to think that when a nation gets taken over, that the people in charge really give a shit about what the population thinks, and don't just rule with an iron fist until they fall in line. How exactly would Gaza resist Israel? Riddle me that, Batman.

 

[Siver!]

Yep.

Says who? You?

Funny how you claim that a one state solution won't work, but the two state solution that hasn't worked and never will work, will somehow work.

Keep telling yourself fairy tales, bruh. Israel is taking it. That's the goal. Something you whine about on the reg, but just don't like it when somebody who isn't hysterically crying about it, tells you "Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing."

Israel isn't 'taking' anything, you need to grow up and be mature and accept that won't happen.

Israel isn't permitted to remove Gaza or Palestine. It can't eliminate Gaza or Palestine. It can't eradicate Gazans or Palestinians, it doesn't have the authority, strength, or power to do that.

Israel has been trying it's pseudo-one state solution for decades. It's not working. It never came close to working. It's a complete and total failure. Many Israelis died as a result of the complete and total failure that was the policy you want to continue.

What's more, a full-on one state solution won't be tolerated, the idiots on the Israeli government who want that will just get slapped silly by the international community, starting with the US when Biden gets bored of Netanyahu's pseudo-tough guy image that barely gets any play at home, let alone abroad (read: desperate clown).

There's going to be a two-state solution. The more fair it is, the fewer people will die in future.

Cope and seethe.

 

[avenue94]

It literally doesn't matter. You seem to think that when a nation gets taken over, that the people in charge really give a shit about what the population thinks, and don't just rule with an iron fist until they fall in line. How exactly would Gaza resist Israel? Riddle me that, Batman.

It's very important. Occupations do not succeed without buy in from the occupied population.

And how would Gaza resist?
-Weapons are going to be smuggled in
-Strikes and labor disruptions
-Riots or civil unrest
-Non-violent protests

Your advice sounds like the kind of shit supporters of the Vietnam War would parrot.

 

[HereticBD]

Israel isn't 'taking' anything, you need to grow up and be mature and accept that won't happen.

Then why do you cry every single day that they are? Only to your fellow Pali sympathizers of course. I guess you're just so used to Israel supporters going "Oh' no, they're not doing that" and then arguing that they are, that it fucks you all up when one says "Yeah, they're totally doing that, and it's a good thing they are. Enough is enough."

So tell me, is Israel the big bad guys you say they are when you're performatively crying your eyes out on the internet to your fellow tampons, or aren't they?

 

[HereticBD]

It's very important. Occupations do not succeed without buy in from the occupied population.

And how would Gaza resist?
-Weapons are going to be smuggled in
-Strikes and labor disruptions
-Riots or civil unrest
-Non-violent protests

LOL. Watch out Israel. These guys mean business. If only they feared that before they turned the place into a parking lot to re-build into Palisrael.

 

[Siver!]

Then why do you cry every single day that they are? Only to your fellow Pali sympathizers of course. I guess you're just so used to Israel supporters going "Oh' no, they're not doing that" and then arguing that they are, that it fucks you all up when one says "Yeah, they're totally doing that, and it's a good thing they are. Enough is enough."

So tell me, is Israel the big bad guys you say they are when you're performatively crying your eyes out on the internet to your fellow tampons, or aren't they?

Nobody cries that Israel is 'taking' Palestine/Gaza.

They object to meaningless loss of life.

I'm proud to be called a 'Pali sympathizer' in that regard. The fewer people that are murdered by desperate politicians the better. If you're against that because 'daddy issues', that's on you.

Per your second question, Israel are led by pieces of shit who by each passing day become closer and closer to a Hamas equivalent-level extremist. They can't stop themselves. They're fucked in the head. Blood drunk pieces of garbage who will be best off dead - like Hamas.

 

[avenue94]

LOL. Watch out Israel. These guys mean business. If only they feared that before they turned the place into a parking lot to re-build into Palisrael.

How do you explain the end of apartheid in South Africa or the civil rights movement in the US, or People Power Revolution? Since you think strikes and demonstrations are ineffective, how come all these regimes with much more firepower lose?